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VIDEO TRANSCRIPT: TV journalist Cathy Newmanís grilling of Canadian psychologist Jordan Peterson

Transcribed by Peter Zohrab on 27 January 2018 and proofread on 28 January 2018.

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  1. CATHY NEWMAN: Jordan Peterson, youíve said that men need to ďgrow the hell up.ĒTell me why.

  2. JORDAN PETERSON: Well, because thereís nothing uglier than an old infant.Thereís nothing good about it.People who donít grow up donít find the kind of meaning in their life that sustains them through difficult times -- and they are certain to encounter difficult times Ė and theyíre left bitter and resentful and without purpose and adrift and hostile and resentful and vengeful and arrogant and deceitful and of no use to themselves and of no use to anyone else and no partner for a woman and thereís nothing in it thatís good.

  3. CATHY NEWMAN: That sounds pretty bad.

  4. JORDAN PETERSON: It is bad!

  5. CATHY NEWMAN: Youíre saying thereís a crisis of masculinity.What do you do about it?

  6. JORDAN PETERSON: You tell Ö help people understand why itís necessary and important for them to grow up and accept responsibility, why that isnít a ďshake your finger and get your act togetherĒ kind of thing, why itís more like a delineation of the kind of destiny that makes life worth living.Iíve been telling young men Ė but I wasnít specifically aiming this message at young men, to begin with.It just kind of turned out that way. †††††††††††

  7. CATHY NEWMAN: And you admit that itís mainly men listening.


  9. CATHY NEWMAN:Your audiences are male, right?

  10. JORDAN PETERSON: Well, itís about 80% on Youtube.Youtube is a male domain, primarily, so itís hard to say how much of it is because Youtube is male and how much of it is because of what Iím saying, but Iíve been telling young men that thereís an actual reason why they need to grow up, which is that they have something to offer, you know, that people have within themselves this capacity to set the World straight that itís necessary to manifest in the World and that also, that doing so is where you find the meaning that sustains you in life.

  11. CATHY NEWMAN: So whatís gone wrong, then?

  12. JORDAN PETERSON: Oh God!All sorts of things have gone wrong.I donít think that young men hear words of encouragement Ė some of them never in their entire lives, as far as I can tell.That's what they tell me and the fact that the words that Iíve been speaking, the Youtube lectures that Iíve done and put online, for example, have had such a dramatic impact is an indication that young men are starving for this kind of message, because why in the World would they have to derive it from a lecture on Youtube?Now theyíre not being taught that itís important to develop yourself.

  13. CATHY NEWMAN: Does it bother you that your audience is predominantly male?Isnít that a bit divisive?

  14. JORDAN PETERSON: No, I donít think soÖ I mean, itís no more divisive than the fact that Youtube is primarily male and Tumblr is primarily women.Tumblr is primarily female.

  15. CATHY NEWMAN:You're just saying that thatís the way it is.

  16. JORDAN PETERSON: Iím not saying anything.Itís just an observation that thatís the way it is.There are plenty of women who are watching my lectures and coming to my lectures and buying my books.Itís just that the majority of them happen to be men.

  17. CATHY NEWMAN: Whatís in it for the women, though?

  18. JORDAN PETERSON: Well, what sort of partner do you want? Do you want an overgrown child?Or do you want someone to contend with, thatís going to help you, that you can rely on?

  19. CATHY NEWMAN: Youíre saying that women have some sort of duty to sort of help fix the crisis of masculinity.

  20. JORDAN PETERSON: It depends on what they want, you know.Itís exactly how I laid it out.Women want, deeply want men who are competent and powerful.And I donít mean ďpowerĒ in that they can exert tyrannical control over others.Thatís not power.Thatís just corruption.Power is competence and why in the World would you not want a competent partner?Well, I know why, actually.You canít dominate a competent partner.So if you want to dominate, Ö.

  21. CATHY NEWMAN: So youíre saying that women want to dominate.

  22. JORDAN PETERSON: No, Iíd say that women who have had their relationships impaired and who are afraid of such relationships will settle for a weak partner, because they can dominate them, but itís a sub-optimal solution.

  23. CATHY NEWMAN: Do you think that thatís what a lot of women are doing?

  24. JORDAN PETERSON: I think thereís a substantial minority of women who do that and I think itís very bad for them, theyíre very unhappy, itís very bad for their partners, although their partners get the advantage of not having to take any responsibility.

  25. CATHY NEWMAN: But what gives you the right to say that?I mean, maybe thatís the way women want to have their relationships Ė those women.I mean, youíre making these vast generalisations.

  26. JORDAN PETERSON: Iím a Clinical Psychologist.

  27. CATHY NEWMAN: Youíre saying, youíve done your research and women are unhappy dominating men.

  28. JORDAN PETERSON: I didnít say they were unhappy dominating men.I said it was a bad long-term solution.Thatís not the same thing.

  29. CATHY NEWMAN: ††††††††††† But you said it was making them miserable.

  30. JORDAN PETERSON: Yes, yes.It depends on the time-frame.Thereís intense pleasure in momentary domination.Thatís why people do it all the time, but itís no formula for a successful long-term relationship.Thatís reciprocal, right?Any long-term relationship is reciprocal Ė virtually by definition.

  31. CATHY NEWMAN: Let me put a point to you from the book, where you say there are whole disciplines in universities forthrightly hostile towards men.These are the areas of study dominated by the Postmodern/Neo-Marxist claim that Western culture, in particular, is an oppressive structure, created by White men to dominate and exclude women.

  32. JORDAN PETERSON: Minorities, too.

  33. CATHY NEWMAN:OK, sure.But I want to put it to you that here in the UK, for example Ė letís take that as an example Ė the gender pay-gap stands at just over nine percent.Youíve got women at the BBC, for example, recently saying that the broadcaster is illegally paying them less than men for doing the same job.Youíve got only seven women running the top FTSE-100 companies.So it seems to a lot of women that theyíre still being ďdominated and excludedĒ, to quote your words back to you.††

  34. JORDAN PETERSON: It does seem that way, but multivariate analysis of the pay gap indicates that it doesnít exist.

  35. CATHY NEWMAN: But thatís not true, is it?

  36. JORDAN PETERSON: Itís absolutely true.

  37. CATHY NEWMAN: A nine percent pay gap Ė thatís a gap between median hourly earnings between men and women.††That exists.

  38. JORDAN PETERSON: Yes, but there are multiple reasons for that.One of them is gender, but itís not the only reason.If youíre a Social Scientist worth your salt, you never do a univariate analysis.I could say that women, in aggregate, are paid less than men.OK, then we break it down by age, we break it down by occupation, we break it down by interest, we break it down by personality.

  39. CATHY NEWMAN: But youíre saying basically it doesnít matter if women arenít getting to the top, because thatís whatís skewing that gender pay gap, isnít it?Youíre saying that thatís just a fact of life.

  40. JORDAN PETERSON: Not saying it doesnít matter.No, Iím not saying it doesnít matter, either.Iím saying there are multiple reasons for it.††

  41. CATHY NEWMAN: Yes, but why should women put up with those reasons?

  42. JORDAN PETERSON: Iím not saying that they should put up with it.Iím saying that the claim that the wage gap between men and women is only due to sex is wrong.And it is wrong.Thereís no doubt about that. The multivariate analysis has been done.I can give you an example.Wait!

  43. CATHY NEWMAN: A multivariate analysis.Iím saying that that nine percent pay gap exists.


  45. CATHY NEWMAN: Thatís a gap between men and women.Iím not saying why it exists, but it exists.Now, if youíre a woman, that seems pretty unfair.

  46. JORDAN PETERSON: You have to say why it exists.†††††

  47. CATHY NEWMAN: But do you agree that itís unfair?If youíre a woman Ö

  48. JORDAN PETERSON: Not necessarily.

  49. CATHY NEWMAN: And, on average, youíre getting paid nine percent than a man.Thatís not fair, is it?

  50. JORDAN PETERSON: That depends on why itís happening.I can give you an example.OK..Thereís a personality trait known as agreeableness.Agreeable people are compassionate and polite.And agreeable people get paid less than less agreeable people for the same job.Women are more agreeable than men.

  51. CATHY NEWMAN: Again, a vast generalisation.Some women are not more agreeable than men.

  52. JORDAN PETERSON: Itís not a generalisation.Yes, thatís true, but Ö.Thatís right and some women get paid more than men.

  53. CATHY NEWMAN: So youíre saying that, by and large, women are too agreeable to get the pay rises that they deserve.

  54. JORDAN PETERSON: No, Iím saying that....Iím saying that thatís one component of a multivariate equation that predicts salary.It accounts for maybe five percent of the variance Ė something like that.We need about another eighteen factors, one of which is gender.There is prejudice.Thereís no doubt about that, but it accounts for a much smaller proportion of the variance in the pay gap than the Radical Feminists claim.

  55. CATHY NEWMAN: OK, so, rather than denying that the pay gap exists, which is what you did at the beginning of this conversation, shouldnít you say to women, ďRather than being agreeable and not asking for a pay rise, go and ask for a pay rise.ĒMake yourself disagreeable with your boss.

  56. JORDAN PETERSON: Oh, definitely, thereís that.But I also didnít deny it existed.I denied that it existed because of gender, because Iím very, very, very careful with my words

  57. CATHY NEWMAN: So the pay gap exists Ė you accept that Ė but youíre saying Ė I mean, the pay gap between men and women exists Ė but youíre saying that it doesnít exist because of gender.It exists because women are too agreeable to ask for pay rises.

  58. JORDAN PETERSON: Thatís one of the reasons.

  59. CATHY NEWMAN: OK, one of the reasons.So why not get them to ask for a pay rise?

  60. JORDAN PETERSON: Iíve done that.Iíve done that many, many times in my career.Iíve counselledÖ

  61. CATHY NEWMAN: And they just donít?

  62. JORDAN PETERSON: Oh, they do that all the time!One of the things you do, as a Clinical Psychologist, is assertiveness training.So, you might say, often you treat people for anxiety and for depression and maybe the next most common category after that would be assertiveness training, and so Iíve had many, many women, extraordinarily competent women, in my clinical consulting practice and weíve put together strategies for their career development that involve continual pushing, competing, for higher wages and often tripled their wages within a five-year period, teaching them how to negotiate.

  63. CATHY NEWMAN: And you celebrate that?

  64. JORDAN PETERSON: Of course!Of course!

  65. CATHY NEWMAN: So, do you agree that you would be happy if that pay gap were eliminated completely, because thatís all the Radical Feminists are saying.

  66. JORDAN PETERSON: It would depend on how it was eradicated and how the disappearance of it was measured.

  67. CATHY NEWMAN: Youíre saying that if itís at the cost of men, then thatís a problem.

  68. JORDAN PETERSON: Oh, there are all sorts of things that it could be at the cost of.It could even be at the cost of womenís own interests, so Ö

  69. CATHY NEWMAN: Because they might not be happy if they got equal pay?

  70. JORDAN PETERSON: No, because it might interfere with other things that are causing the pay gap that women are choosing to do.

  71. CATHY NEWMAN: Like having children?

  72. JORDAN PETERSON: Or choosing careers that actually happen to be paid less, which women do a lot of.

  73. CATHY NEWMAN: But why shouldnít women have the right to choose not to have children, or the right to choose those demanding careers?

  74. JORDAN PETERSON: They do.They can.Yeah, thatís fine.

  75. CATHY NEWMAN: And youíre saying that makes them unhappy, by and large.

  76. JORDAN PETERSON: No, Iím not saying that, and I actually havenít said that so far in this programme.

  77. CATHY NEWMAN: Youíre saying it makes them miserable.

  78. JORDAN PETERSON: No, I said that what was making them miserable was having weak partners.That makes them miserable.I would say that many women between the age of 28 and 32 have a career-family crisis that they have to deal with and I think thatís partly because of the foreshortened time-frame women have to contend with.Women have to get the major pieces of their life put together faster than men, which is partly why men arenít under so much pressure to grow up.So because for the typical woman, she has to have her career and family in order pretty much by the time sheís 35, because otherwise the options start to run out, so that puts a tremendous amount of stress on women, especially at the end of their twenties.

  79. CATHY NEWMAN: Iíd like to take issue with the idea of the typical; woman, because Ė you know Ė all women are different.I wanna just put another quote to you from the bookÖ

  80. JORDAN PETERSON: Theyíre different in some ways and the same in others.

  81. CATHY NEWMAN: OK, you say, ďWomen become more vulnerable when they have children.Ē

  82. JORDAN PETERSON: Oh yes.

  83. CATHY NEWMAN: You talked in one of your Youtube interviews about ďcrazy harpy sisters,Ē so, simple question: is gender equality a myth, in your view.Is that something that is never going to happen?

  84. JORDAN PETERSON: It depends on what you mean by ďequalityĒ.

  85. CATHY NEWMAN: Women being treated fairly, getting the same opportunities.

  86. JORDAN PETERSON: Fairly.We could get to a point where people were treated fairly, or more fairly.I mean, people are treated pretty fairly in Western culture already, but we could improve that.

  87. CATHY NEWMAN: But theyíre not, really, are they?Otherwise, why would there be only seven women running FTSE-100 companies in the UK?Why would there still be a pay gap, which weíve discussed?Why are women at the BBC saying that theyíre being paid, illegally, less than men to do the same job?Thatís not fair, is it?

  88. JORDAN PETERSON: Letís go to the first question.Those are complicated questions.Seven womenÖ.Repeat that one.

  89. CATHY NEWMAN: Seven women running the top FTSE-100 companies in the UK.

  90. JORDAN PETERSON: The first question might be, ďWhy would you want to do that?Ē†††††††††††

  91. CATHY NEWMAN: Well, why would a man want to do it?

  92. JORDAN PETERSON: Thereís a certain number of men Ė although not that many Ė who are perfectly willing to sacrifice virtually all of their life to the pursuit of a high-end career.These are men who are very intelligent, they are usually very conscientious, they are very driven, theyíre very high-energy, theyíre very healthy and theyíre willing to work seventy to eighty hours a week non-stop, specialised, at one thing, to get to the top.

  93. CATHY NEWMAN: So youíre saying women are just more sensible.They donít want that, because itís not a nice life?

  94. JORDAN PETERSON: Iím saying thatís part of it, definitely andÖ

  95. CATHY NEWMAN: So you donít think there are barriers in their way that prevent them getting to the top?

  96. JORDAN PETERSON: Oh, there are some barriers, like men, for example.To get to the top of any organization is an incredibly competitive enterprise and the men that youíre competing against are simply not going to roll over and say, ďPlease take the position.ĒItís absolute all-out warfare.

  97. CATHY NEWMAN: Is gender equality a myth?

  98. JORDAN PETERSON: I donít know what you mean by the question.Men and women arenít the same and they wonít be the same.That doesnít mean they canít be treated fairly.

  99. CATHY NEWMAN: Is gender equality desirable?

  100. JORDAN PETERSON: If it means equality of outcome, then almost certainly itís undesirable.Thatís already been demonstrated in Scandinavia, because in ScandinaviaÖ.

  101. CATHY NEWMAN: What do you mean by that: ďEquality of outcome is undesirableĒ?

  102. JORDAN PETERSON: Well, men and women wonít sort themselves into the same categories if you leave them alone to do it of their own accord.Weíve already seen that in Scandinavia.Twenty to one female nurses to male.Something like that.It might not be quite that extreme.And approximately the same male engineers to female engineers.And thatís the result of the free choice of men and women in the societies that have gone further than any other societies to make gender equality the purpose of the law.Those are ineradicable differences.You can eradicate them with tremendous social pressure and tyranny, but if you leave men and women to make their own choices, you will not get equal outcomes.

  103. CATHY NEWMAN: So youíre saying that anyone who believes in equality, call them Feminists, call them whatever you want to call them, should basically give up, because it ainít gonna happen.

  104. JORDAN PETERSON: Well, only if theyíre aiming at equality of outcome.

  105. CATHY NEWMAN: So youíre saying, ďGive people equality of opportunity, thatís fine.Ē

  106. JORDAN PETERSON: Not only fine, itís eminently desirable for everyone Ė for individuals and for Society.

  107. CATHY NEWMAN: But still women arenít going to make it, thatís what youíre really saying.

  108. JORDAN PETERSON: It depends on your measurement techniques.Theyíre doing just fine in medicine.In fact, there are far more female physicians than there are male physicians.There are lots of disciplines that are absolutely dominated by women.Many, many disciplines, and theyíre doing great!SoÖ

  109. CATHY NEWMAN: Let me put something else to you from the book.You say, ďThe introduction of the Ďequal pay for equal workí argument immediately complicates even salary comparison beyond practicality for one simple reason: Who decides what work is equal?Itís not possible.ĒSo the simple question is: Do you believe in equal pay?

  110. JORDAN PETERSON: Well, I made the argument there.I said it dependsÖ.

  111. CATHY NEWMAN: So you donít believe in equal pay.

  112. JORDAN PETERSON: Ha, Ha! No!Iím not saying that at all!

  113. CATHY NEWMAN: Because a lot of people listening to you will just say, ďWell, are we going back to the Dark Ages here?Ē

  114. JORDAN PETERSON: Thatís because theyíre actually not listening.Youíre just projecting what you thinkÖ

  115. CATHY NEWMAN: Iím listening very carefully and Iím hearing you basically saying, ďWomen need to just accept that theyíre never going to make it on equal termsĒ Ė ďequal outcomesĒ is how you defined it.

  116. JORDAN PETERSON: No, I didnít say that.I said that equalÖ.

  117. CATHY NEWMAN: If I was watching that, Iíd go, ďWell, I might as well just go and play with my Sindy dolls and give up trying at school, because Iím not going to get the top job I want, because thereís someone sitting there, saying itís not possible and itís not desirable.Itís going to make you miserable.Ē

  118. JORDAN PETERSON: I said that equal outcomes werenít desirable.Thatís what I said.

  119. CATHY NEWMAN: Yeah.

  120. JORDAN PETERSON: Itís a bad social goal.I didnít say that women shouldnít be striving for the top, or anything like that, because I donít believe that for a second.

  121. CATHY NEWMAN: Striving for the top, but youíre going to put all those hurdles in their way, as have been in their way for centuries, but thatís fine.Youíre saying thatís fine. The patriarchal system is just fine.

  122. JORDAN PETERSON: No, no!I really think thatís silly!I do.I think thatís silly!I really do.I mean, look at your situation.Youíre hardly unsuccessful.

  123. CATHY NEWMAN: Yeah, and I battled quite hard to get where I am.

  124. JORDAN PETERSON: Exactly!Good for you!

  125. CATHY NEWMAN: Thatís OK.Battling is good. This is all about the fight.

  126. JORDAN PETERSON: Battling is inevitable.

  127. CATHY NEWMAN: But you talk about men fighting.Let me just put another thing to youÖ

  128. JORDAN PETERSON: This is inevitable!Why wouldnít you have to battle for a high-quality position?

  129. CATHY NEWMAN: ††††††††††† Well, I notice in your book you talk about real conversations between men containing, quote: ďan underlying threat of physicality.Ē

  130. JORDAN PETERSON: Oh, thereís no doubt about that!

  131. CATHY NEWMAN: What about real conversations between women?Is that somethingÖ or are we too amenable and reasonable?

  132. JORDAN PETERSON: No, itís just that the domain of physical conflict is sort of off-limits for you.Itís rather unfortunate.

  133. CATHY NEWMAN: Well, youíve just said that Iíve fought to get where Iíve got.What does that make me Ė an honorary man, or something?

  134. JORDAN PETERSON: I donít imagine youÖ. Yeah, to some degree.I suspect that youíre not very agreeable.

  135. CATHY NEWMAN: So thatís the thing Ė Iím not very agreeable Ė successful women

  136. JORDAN PETERSON: Right!Iíve noticed that, actually, in this conversation!And Iím sure itís served your career well.

  137. CATHY NEWMAN: Successful women, though, basically have to wear the trousers, in your view.They have to sort of become men to succeed, is what youíre saying.I had to fight to succeed, therefore Iím an honorary man.

  138. JORDAN PETERSON: Well, if theyíre going to compete against men, certainly masculine traits are going to be helpful.I mean, one of the things I do in my counselling practice, for example, when Iím consulting with women who are trying to advance their careers, is to teach them how to negotiate and to be able to say ďNoĒ and to not be easily pushed around and to be formidable.And, if youíre going to be successful, you need to be smart, conscientious, and tough.

  139. CATHY NEWMAN: Now hereís a radical idea:Why donít the bosses -- the male bosses, shall we say, adopt some female traits, so women donít have to fight and get their sharp elbows out for the pay rises.Itís just accepted that, if theyíre doing the same job, they get the same pay?

  140. JORDAN PETERSON: Well, I would say partly because itís not so easy to determine what constitutes the same job.

  141. CATHY NEWMAN: Thatís because, arguably, there are still men dominating our industries, our society, and therefore theyíve dictated the terms for so long, that women have to battle to be like the men.

  142. JORDAN PETERSON: No, itís not true.Itís not true.So, for example,

  143. CATHY NEWMAN: Whereís the evidence?

  144. JORDAN PETERSON: Well, I can give you an example very quickly.Iíve worked with women whoíve worked in high-powered law firms in Canada for about fifteen years and they were as competent and put-together as anybody you would ever meet and we were trying to figure out how to further their careers.And there was a huge debate in Canadian society at that point, that basically ran along the same lines as your argument, that, if these law firms didnít use these masculine criteria, then perhaps women would do better, but the market sets the damn game.Itís like,

  145. CATHY NEWMAN: And the market is dominated by men.What Iím asking youÖ.

  146. JORDAN PETERSON: No.Itís not.Itís not.The market is dominated by women.They make eighty percent of the consumer decisions.Thatís not the case at all!Eighty percent Ö

  147. CATHY NEWMAN:Youíre talking about people who stay at home, looking after children.By and large, they are still women.So they are going out doing the shopping, but that is changing.

  148. JORDAN PETERSON: They make all the consumer decisions.The market is driven by women Ė not men. OK.And if youíre a lawyer in CanadaÖ

  149. CATHY NEWMAN:And they still pay more for the same sort of goods. Thatís been proven.That menÖ.If you buy a blue bicycle helmet, itís going to cost less than a pink one.Anyway, weíll come onto that.

  150. JORDAN PETERSON: Itís partly because men are less agreeable.Right, so they wonít put up with it.

  151. CATHY NEWMAN: I want to ask you: Is it not desirable to have some of those ďfemale traitsĒ Ė Iíd say that was a generalisation, but youíve used the words ďfemale traitsĒ Ė is it not desirable to have some of them for the top of business?Maybe there would not have been a banking crisis.

  152. JORDAN PETERSON: They donít predict success in the workplace.The things that predict success in the workplace are intelligence and conscientiousness.Agreeableness negatively predicts success in the workplace.And so does high negative emotion.

  153. CATHY NEWMAN: Youíre saying that women are not intelligent enough to run these top companies?

  154. JORDAN PETERSON: No.I didnít say that at all.

  155. CATHY NEWMAN:You said that female traits donít predict success.

  156. JORDAN PETERSON: But I didnít say that intelligence and conscientiousness werenít female traits.

  157. CATHY NEWMAN: But you were saying, by implication, that intelligence and conscientiousness werenít female traits.

  158. JORDAN PETERSON: Oh no, no!!No, Iím not saying that.Iím not saying that at all!

  159. CATHY NEWMAN: Are women less intelligent than men?

  160. JORDAN PETERSON: No. No, theyíre not.The data on thatís pretty clear.The average IQ for women and the average IQ for men is identical.There is some debate about the flatness of the distribution, which is something that James Damore pointed out, for example, in his memo, but thereís no difference at all in general cognitive ability.Thereís no difference to speak of in conscientiousness.Women are a bit more orderly than men and men are a bit more industrious than women, but the difference isnít big.That averages into conscientiousness.

  161. CATHY NEWMAN: There are plenty of men who arenít necessarily all that industrious.

  162. JORDAN PETERSON: Well, of course!But you asked me a question!

  163. CATHY NEWMAN: But why are they,,,,

  164. JORDAN PETERSON: Feminine traits.

  165. CATHY NEWMAN:Feminine traits.Why are they not desirable at the top of (inaudible).

  166. JORDAN PETERSON: Itís hard to say.Iím just laying out the empirical evidence.We know the traits that predict success.

  167. CATHY NEWMAN: But we also know, because companies have not been dominated by women, by and large, over the centuries, we have nothing to compare it to.Itís an experiment.

  168. JORDAN PETERSON: True!And it might well be the case that, if companies modified their behaviour and became more feminine, they would be successful, but thereís no evidence for it.

  169. CATHY NEWMAN:But youíre doubtful.

  170. JORDAN PETERSON: Iím neither doubtful nor non-doubtful.Thereís no evidence for it.

  171. CATHY NEWMAN: Then why not give it a go, as the Radical Feminists would say?

  172. JORDAN PETERSON: Well, thatís fine!If someone wants to start a company and make it more feminine and compassionate, say, and caring in its overall orientation towards its workers and towards the marketplace, than thatís a perfectly reasonable experiment to run.My point is that thereís no evidence that those traits predict success in the workplace and thereís evidenceÖ.

  173. CATHY NEWMAN: Because itís never been tried!

  174. JORDAN PETERSON: Well, thatís not really the case.Women have been in the workplace since at least ever since Iíve been around the representation of women in the workplace has been around fifty percent, so weíve run the experiment for a fairly reasonable period of time, but not, you know, certainly not for centuries.

  175. CATHY NEWMAN: Let me move on to another debate thatís been very controversial for you.You got in trouble for refusing to call Trans men and women by their preferred personal pronouns.

  176. JORDAN PETERSON: Itís not actually true.I got in trouble because I said I would not follow the compelled speech dictates of the Federal and Provincial government.I actually never got in trouble for not calling any one anything.

  177. CATHY NEWMAN: Right.

  178. JORDAN PETERSON: That didnít happen.

  179. CATHY NEWMAN: You wouldnít follow the change of law which was designed to outlaw discrimination.

  180. JORDAN PETERSON: Not once it was law, no.No.Well, thatís what they said it was designed to do.

  181. CATHY NEWMAN: You cited freedom of speech in that.Why should your right to freedom of speech trump a Trans personís right not to be offended?

  182. JORDAN PETERSON: Because, in order to be able to think, you have to risk being offensive.I mean, look at the conversation weíre having right now.You know, like, youíre certainly willing to risk offending me in the pursuit of truth.Why should you have the right to do that?Itís been rather uncomfortable.

  183. CATHY NEWMAN: Well, Iím very glad Iíve put you on the spot!

  184. JORDAN PETERSON: But you get my point?Itís like, youíre doing what you should do, which is digging a bit to find out what the hellís going on, and that is what you should do, but youíre exercising your freedom of speech to certainly risk offending me!And thatís fine!I think, more power to you, as far as I am concerned.

  185. CATHY NEWMAN: Except you havenít sat there andÖ Iím just trying to work that out, I meanÖ

  186. JORDAN PETERSON: Hah!Gotcha!!

  187. CATHY NEWMAN: You have got me.You have got me.Iím just trying to work that through in my head.It took a while. It took a while.It took a while.You have voluntarily come into this studio and agreed to be questioned.A Trans person in your class has come to your class and said they wanted to be called ďsheĒ.

  188. JORDAN PETERSON: Thatís never happened.And I would call them ďsheĒ.

  189. CATHY NEWMAN: So you would.So youíve kind of changed your tune on that.

  190. JORDAN PETERSON: No.No. I said that right from the beginning.What I said at the beginning was that I was not going to cede the linguistic territory to Radical Leftists, regardless of whether or not it was put in law.Thatís what I said.And then the people who came after me said, ďOh, you must be transphobic and you mistreat a student in your class.ĒI never mistreated a student in my class, Iím not transphobic and that isnít what I said.

  191. CATHY NEWMAN:Well, youíve also called Trans campaigners authoritarian, havenít you?Isnít thatÖ?

  192. JORDAN PETERSON: Only in the broader context of my claim that Radical Leftist ideologues are authoritarian, which they are.

  193. CATHY NEWMAN: Youíre saying that someone whoís trying to work out their gender identity, who may well have struggled with that, had quite a tough time over the yearsÖ

  194. JORDAN PETERSON: No doubt may have struggled with it, yeah.

  195. CATHY NEWMAN: Youíre comparing them with, you know, Chairman Mao, who caused the deaths of millions of people.

  196. JORDAN PETERSON: No, just the activists.Just the activists.

  197. CATHY NEWMAN: Well, even if the activists Ė you know, theyíre Trans people too.They have a right to say these things.

  198. JORDAN PETERSON: But they donít have a right to speak for the whole community.

  199. CATHY NEWMAN: Isnít it grossly insensitive to compare them to Chairman Mao Ė you know, I could -- or Pinochet, Augusto Pinochet?I mean, this is grossly insensitive, isnít it?

  200. JORDAN PETERSON: I didnít compare them to Pinochet.I did compare them to Mao.

  201. CATHY NEWMAN: Well, Pinochet is an authoritarian.

  202. JORDAN PETERSON: Heís a Right-Winger, though.I was comparing them to the Left-Wing authoritarians.And I do believe they are Left-Wing totalitarians.

  203. CATHY NEWMAN: Under Mao, millions of people died.

  204. JORDAN PETERSON: Right.

  205. CATHY NEWMAN: I mean, thereís no comparison between Mao and a Trans activist, is there?

  206. JORDAN PETERSON: Why not?

  207. CATHY NEWMAN: Because Trans activists arenít killing millions of people?

  208. JORDAN PETERSON: The philosophy thatís guiding their utterances is the same philosophy.

  209. CATHY NEWMAN: The consequences are..

  210. JORDAN PETERSON: Not yet!

  211. CATHY NEWMAN: Youíre saying that Trans activists could lead to the deaths of millions of people?

  212. JORDAN PETERSON: No. No, Iím saying that the philosophy that drives their utterances is the same as the philosophy that already has driven us to the deaths of millions of people.

  213. CATHY NEWMAN:OK, tell us how that philosophy is in anyway comparable.

  214. JORDAN PETERSON: Sure, thatís no problem!The first thing is that their philosophy presumes that group identity is paramount.Thatís the fundamental philosophy that drove the Soviet Union and Maoist China and itís the fundamental philosophy of the Left-Wing activists.Itís identity politics.Doesnít matter who you are as an individual.It matters who you are in terms of your group identity.

  215. CATHY NEWMAN: youíre just saying that to provoke, arenít you?I mean, you are a provocateur.

  216. JORDAN PETERSON: Not a bit!I never say anythingÖ

  217. CATHY NEWMAN: Youíre like the Alt Right that you hate to be compared to.You want to stir things up.

  218. JORDAN PETERSON: Iím only a provocateur insofar as, when I say what I believe to be true, itís provocative.I donít provoke.Maybe for humour.

  219. CATHY NEWMAN: You donít set out to provoke.

  220. JORDAN PETERSON: Now and then.Iím not interested in provoking.

  221. CATHY NEWMAN: What about the thing about, you know, fighting andÖthe lobster?Tell us about the lobster.

  222. JORDAN PETERSON: Well, thatís quite a segue!The first chapter I have in my book is called, ďStand up straight with your shoulders backĒ, and itís an injunction to be combative Ė not least, to further your career, letís say Ė but also to adopt a stance of ready engagement with the World and to reflect that in your posture.And the reason that I write about lobsters is that thereís this idea that hierarchical structures are a Sociological construct of the Western Patriarchy and that is so untrue that itís almost unbelievable and I use the lobster as an example, because we diverged from lobsters in evolutionary history about 350 million years ago.Common ancestor.And lobsters exist in hierarchies and have a nervous system attuned to the hierarchy and that nervous system runs on serotonin, just like our nervous systems do.And the nervous system of the lobster and of the human being is so similar that antidepressants work on lobsters and itís part my attempt to demonstrate that the idea of hierarchy has nothing to do with Socio-Cultural construction, which it doesnít.

  223. CATHY NEWMAN: †† Letís just get this straight.Youíre saying that we should organise our societies along the lines of the lobsters?

  224. JORDAN PETERSON: Iím saying that itís inevitable that there will be continuity between the way that animals and human beings organise their structures.Itís absolutely inevitable.And there is one third of a million years of evolutionary history behind that.Right.Thatís so long that a third of a billion years ago there werenít even trees.Itís a long time.You have a mechanism in your brain that runs on serotonin thatís similar to the lobster mechanism that tracks your status.And the higher your status, the better your emotions are regulated.So, as your serotonin levels increase, you feel more positive emotion and less negative emotion.

  225. CATHY NEWMAN: So youíre saying that, like lobsters, weíre hard-wired, as men and women, to do certain things, to sort of run along tram-lines and thereís nothing we can do about it?

  226. JORDAN PETERSON: No, Iím not saying thereís nothing we can do about it, because itís like aÖ in a chess game, right, there are lots of things that you can do, although you canít break the rules of the chess game and continue to play chess.Your biological nature is somewhat like that.It sets the rules of the game, but within those rules you have a lot of leeway.But the idea thatÖ But one thing we canít do is say that hierarchy is a consequence of the Capitalist Patriarchy.Thatís patently absurd.Itís wrong.Itís not a matter of opinion.Itís seriously wrong.††

  227. CATHY NEWMAN: Arenít you just whipping people up into a state of anger and Ö

  228. JORDAN PETERSON: Not at all!

  229. CATHY NEWMAN: Divisions between men and women.Youíre stirring people up.Any critics of you online get absolutely lambasted by your followersÖ.(inaudible)

  230. JORDAN PETERSON: And by me, generally.

  231. CATHY NEWMAN:Sorry, your critics get lambasted by you?

  232. JORDAN PETERSON: If theyíre academics.

  233. CATHY NEWMAN:Isnít that irresponsible?Ok..

  234. JORDAN PETERSON: Not at all!If an academic is going to come after me and tell me that Iím not qualified and that I donít know what Iím talking about?†††

  235. CATHY NEWMAN: Would you consider saying to your followers now, ďQuit the abuse, quit the anger!Ē?

  236. JORDAN PETERSON: Well, weíd need some substantial examples of the abuse and the anger before I could detail that question.

  237. CATHY NEWMAN: Thereís a lot of it out there.

  238. JORDAN PETERSON: Well, letís take a more general perspective on that.I have had 25,000 letters since June -- something like that Ė from people whoíve told me that Iíve brought them back from the brink of destruction and so Iím perfectly willing to put that up against the the rather vague accusations that my followers are making the lives of the people that Iíve targeted miserable.

  239. CATHY NEWMAN:Jordan Peterson, thank you!


See also:


Summary Haiku:

Men have no rights,
but aren't less human.
We blame sexism.





Peter Douglas Zohrab

Latest Update

29 October 2022