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Newshub Nation: The controversial "He
Puapua" report was written as part of a process to (sic) fulfilling
our commitments to the UN. Authored by an independent group, it recommends
a refocus on Rangatiratanga -- Maori self-determination. It also reignited
claims it is the road to separatism. (0:14)
Well, to discuss this, joining me now is Maori Party Co-Leader, Rawiri
Waititi. Tena koe. Thanks for your time. Good morning. So, He Puapua says
by 2040 Governments should be sharing power with Maori more fairly. What
does that look like?
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Rawiri Waititi: Well, it looks like the true intent of what the Treaty
of Watangi was about in the first place. And so, Article One was about
allowing for Kawanatanga -- not sovereignty, not ownership, but custodianship
and governance.
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Newshub Nation: Right.
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Rawiri Waititi: And Article Two was about Tino Rangatiratanga. And
so, we haven't been able to align in that particular space yet. And the
third part was about mana orite (?), which was to be treated as equal
citizens in this country. (0:53).
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Newshub Nation: OK.
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Rawiri Waititi: And so, I think we are having, I think, a mature and
adult conversation about actually what was the true inmtent of the Treaty
of Waitangi and Whakaputanga, 1835, and I'm sure we can have that (1:04)
....
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Newshub Nation: All right, we'll work out whether we're mature enough
to have that conversation in a moment. Do you think that some of this
is generally already happening. I mean, management of D.O.C. estates,
Kura, Kohanga Reo, Papakainga -- even the establishment of a Maori Health
Authority. (1:17) So this co-governance is
already there?
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Rawiri Waititi: Well, I think that constitutional change doesn't mean
trying to fit Rangi's foot into Cinderella's slipper.
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Newshub Nation: Ha! Ha! OK.
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Rawiri Waititi: This is about constitutional transformation, where
we can sit around the table and actually look at what does Tino Rangatiratanga
for Maori look like, and what it doesn't
look like is working within a Westminster system...
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Newshub Nation: Right. (1:39)
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Rawiri Waititi: ... to find solutions to problems
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Newshub Nation: So you're saying that the...
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Rawiri Waititi: that have been created by that system.
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Newshub Nation: OK. So you're saying that the examples I've just listed
are just like, you know, they're just piecemeal -- like bandaids -- rather
than looking at the whole system. (1:49)
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Rawiri Waititi: I wouldn't say they're bandaids, but -- um -- there
needs to be ... where's the development from there, and then how do we
start moving Maori to being more in control of their own
destiny and in control of their own orana (?) ? You know, I think the
UN declaration -- and I just want to acknowledge Peter Sharples and I
want to acknowledge the National Party of that time, who saw the foresight
of that particular bill...
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Newshub Nation: ... who signed up to the (2:11)
Declaration.
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Rawiri Waititi: And now the Labour Party have said, "Actually,
we need to start implementing this," and so we're quite happy, as
the Maori Party, that everybody else has picked this up.
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Newshub Nation: OK. (2:21). So, does He
Puapua give you the roadmap? Is that ... If you look at He Puapua, is
that what you want?
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Rawiri Waititi: He Puapua only came out yesterday. We're talking about
transforming our Constitution, based on the founding documents of this
country: Te Whakaputanga, the Declaration of Independence, 1835, Te Tiriti
o Waitangi, in 1840, and then we've also had the (Maitiki Mai?) Report,
that's been out for a few years now.
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Newshub Nation: About constitutional reform.
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Rawiri Waititi: That's right, about constitutional reform, and I think,
like I said, we need to have an adult and mature conversation about what
that looks like, moving forward.
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Newshub Nation: Let's talk about some concrete examples from He Puapua.
It suggests an Upper House of Parliament which has a power-sharing arrangement
-- 50:50 Maori:Non-Maori representation. What do you think of an Upper
House like that?
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Rawiri Waititi: Um, we need to...
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Newshub Nation: I don't think you like it.
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Rawiri Waititi: Look, we need to tease that out a little bit more about
what that might look like. In the Matiki Mai (?) Report, also talks about
a tripartite type of relationship, where Tino Rangatiratanga is acknowledged,
for Maori, where Kawanatanga is also acknowledged and then there is this
joining of the two in the third part of that ....
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Newshub Nation: In the middle. OK.
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Rawiri Waititi: Yes.
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Newshub Nation: But in your (3:30) maiden
speech, you went further than an Upper House. You said, you -- in fact
-- you demanded a Maori Parliament.
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Rawiri Waititi: That's right!
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Newshub Nation: You stand by that, right?
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Rawiri Waititi: Yes, absolutely! That's absolutely different to having
an Upper House.
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Newshub Nation: That is right!
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Rawiri Waititi: We want to be in total control of our sovereignty.
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Newshub Nation: That is a separate Parliament, right?
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Rawiri Waititi: Yes, that's right.
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Newshub Nation: How would that work? Would it be democratically elected,
or would it be appointed -- representatives appointed -- Iwis or Hapus?
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Rawiri Waititi: You hear words like "co-governance" and "co-design",
and things like that, but actually we want to design and (3:54)
we want the Government to now align, because, if we're designing, we're
not going to create solutions. We are the solutions to many of the dysfunctions
that this state has created amongst our people, so...
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Newshub Nation: Sure!
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Rawiri Waititi: We want our own sovereignty, which is Tino Rangatiratanga,
(4:09) which Article Two promised us.
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Newshub Nation: I understand that. I understand that has been promised,
as you say, but what does it look like? I mean... , (4:16)
and can you give me an example of how, in your mind, a Maori Parliament
would look?
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Rawiri Waititi: Well, look at the Tuhoe settlement. That wasn't co-governance.
That was Tuhoe sovereignty and so the transition of assets back to Tuhoe
will show how, actually, this can work and Tuhoe's probably an example
of how they have been able to negotiate within the system to come up with
their own..., with their own sovereign solutions to their problems.
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Newshub Nation: OK. And so if a Maori Parliament, if a Member of a Maori
Parliament is selected, not elected, how are they going to be held accountable?
Are they just going to be held accountable to their own Iwi or Hapu?
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Rawiri Waititi: Well, that's exactly right, because that's how it's
always been. Before the arrival of Pakeha to this country, (5:03)
we were answerable to ourselves and so this is just a realignment of being
undisturbed of our taonga, of our possessions and so this is what we're
saying, is that we can have an adult conversation about this, but let's
honour the first document. He Puapua came out yesterday. Let's honour
the first document, that's been here for over 180 years.
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Newshub Nation: Let's get rid of He Puapua for the moment. Do you think
the Government (5:23) buried He Puapua?
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Rawiri Waititi: Oh, well! They've said that they're not going to use
it as the roadmap.
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Newshub Nation:Yeah, that's right!
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Rawiri Waititi: They want to go out and do some more consultation.
My concern would be the wider New Zealand -- because this is what happens
in partnership. So partnership is democracy and democracy is majority
rules. (5:41) And so we lose out again. And
so shouldn't indigenous peoples be coming up with indigenous solutions
to their oranga? Why would you leave it to a majority, then, to decide
the fate of indigenous peoples, because that's what been happening all
over the World for many, many years. (5:56)
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Newshub Nation: In the consultation process that the Governmnet has
outlined this week, it's going to talk to Iwi first and then the wider
consultation period. Do you believe that the wider consultation period
should not happen?
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Rawiri Waititi: The wider consultation period, and the process, usually
dominates what actually indigenous peoples want. (6:13)
And that's what happens all over the World.
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Newshub Nation: And you think that your voice will get lost again.
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Rawiri Waititi: It gets lost everywhere. It gets lost everywhere. We've
had to take (attack?) a racist policy in councils which did the same thing
around Maori wards. And so this is what happens. In a democracy, where
people say it's fair, but actually it's not fair against indigenous peoples,
because, like I said, the majority rules. (6:33)
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Newshub Nation: OK, so let's talk about that, because critics of Te
Puapua say that it recommends a political sytem based on race, rather
than on the democratic principle of everybody being equal. So you say
to them, "Forget that?" I mean, that's not how we should be
based?
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Rawiri Waititi: No. I think the country should be having a conversation
about being a Tiriti-centric Aotearoa and a Tititi-centric Aoatearoa has
the mana -- equal mana -- of Tangata Whenua and Tangata Tiriti. And so
Tangata Whenua and Tangata Tiriti is the birth -- I think -- of a true
Tiriti-centric Aotearoa, (7:06) Tangata Tiriti
being Non-Maori who are committed to Te Tiriti o Waitangi, righting the
wrongs of yesterday and looking forward to a more positive and prosperous
Aotearoa.
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Newshub Nation: A more equitable one.
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Rawiri Waititi: A more equitable one.
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Newshub Nation: OK, but some people -- the critics -- say that it's
a road to separatism, going down (7:24) this
road. What do you say to them? I mean, that's been the argument from National
and....
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Rawiri Waititi: We've been on the road to separatism for 180 years...
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Newshub Nation: Yeah.
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Rawiri Waititi: And so, if we look at a Tiriti-centric Aotearoa, I
think we'll be -- we'll probably be -- the best nation in the World, heading
down this track! Is that you've got Tangata Whenua, Tangata Tiriti equally
making decisions, equitably making decisions for our people and actually
moving New Zealand, which seems to be -- everybody thinks it's in the
Atlantic Ocean somewhere -- and realigning it back into Polynesia, back
into (inaudible).
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Newshub Nation: OK, we've seen the political arguments and the political
debate from, like, National and Act, (8:00) about
separatism, but what about the public themselves? Do you think they're
more on board with this than the political opposition?
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Rawiri Waititi: Absolutely! There's a generation of Tangata Tiriti
on the rise and this is a young, intelligent generation that know the
injustices of the past but are committed to working towards a Tiriti-centric
Aotearoa.
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Newshub Nation: Right! So you're -- are you positive?
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Rawiri Waititi: I'm absolutely positive!
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Newshub Nation: OK.
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Rawiri Waititi: That that's happening. I feel that when I go to the
universities to talk. I feel that when I go to the mainstream schools.
(8:30) But even those sorts of words --
"mainstream, "general", "roll" (?) --
all those sorts of things -- it actually puts Maoris in second place,
because you're not mainstream, you're not the general public -- you're
Maori -- and so we've got to start looking at "Tangata Tiriti",
"Tangata Whenua" and start using the narrative that our people
intended this country to be.
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Newshub Nation: OK, when you see the Opposition criticising, say, the
notion of "partnership" and power-sharing with Maori, does it
make you look back and say, "Why did the Maori Party get into bed
with the National Party in the first place and how long they could govern
like that?" (9:00) I mean, does it disappoint
you?
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Rawiri Waititi: Well, look, this is the system that we're currently
in. It's the Westminster system and our people have tried to manipulate
and to work in this system for a long, long time, but I think it's time
to start looking at some new systems, where it's more equitable and more
equal for indigenous peoples (sic) here in this country.
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Newshub Nation: OK, does that mean that at the next election you can
rule out working with National or Act as a Maori Party?
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Rawiri Waititi: Well, at the moment, I wouldn't work with them at all
-- just the rhetoric that's coming out of those particualr parties. They
don't align, they don't align with us.
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Newshub Nation: OK. (9:30)
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Rawiri Waititi: I don't say that Maori... that we don't look at working
with anybody, you know. We've got to make sure that their policies, their
principles align with ours.
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Newshub Nation: OK. All right. Just quickly: hate speech. (inaudible)
what you say is a rise in hate speech against Maori, but hate speech laws
have been proposed now. Does that address your concerns?
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Rawiri Waititi: Ah... no it doesn't, because the Law hasn't been implemented
and this type of rhetoric and propaganda has been driven by the National
and Act Party, which -- I believe -- has brought (sic) rise to (10:03)
this more racial disharmony in this country.
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Newshub Nation: So you're saying that National and Act have sort of
-- you know -- incited....
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Rawiri Waititi: Yes, they've fueled it -- absolutely!
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Newshub Nation: They've fueled it -- the hate speech?
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Rawiri Waititi: Absolutely! Absolutely!
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Newshub Nation: Hate speech against Maori?
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Rawiri Waititi: Absolutely! Well, here's the difference. So, when you're
using words like "separatism" and "apartheid," you
talk to people who have lived in those regimes and you tell me how much
love was in there and whether there was freedom of speech. It was hate
speech. When you're talking about apartheid and you look at what happened
in South Africa and places like that -- even America itself, (10:30)
you know, where they had separatism -- those are not very nice words to
be using and enforcing onto indigenous peoples. We do not... those words
do not belong to us, nor do those ideologies.
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Newshub Nation: So are you denying their opportunity to use those kinds
of words, or are you denying their opportunity to raise those kinds of
questions?
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Rawiri Waititi: Well, it's hard for you to use those words against
indigenous peoples, who have had to live through regimes like apartheid
and separatism and so, absolutely, that creates a space for people then
to start (11:00) working their way... working
their narrative against indigenous peoples -- and in Aotearoa as Tangata
Whenua.
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Newshub Nation: Well, given what you've experienced, since you've been
in Parliament, has it been a culture-shock for you?
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Rawiri Waititi: Absolutely. And so, you're in the public face and what
you do -- you do get hate speech and you do get....
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Newshub Nation: Because you walked out of Parliament, saying Judith
Collins was asking too many racist questions.
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Rawiri Waititi: Well, the thing is, you can't call anybody "racist"
in Parliament, but you're allowed to say racist things. (11:33)
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Newshub Nation: Right.
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Rawiri Waititi: And so, when you're using "separatism" and
"apartheid" against an indigenous peoples (sic) -- you know
-- that sounds like... Ah... an oxymoron to me.
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Newshub Nation: Are you enjoying yourself in Parliament?
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Rawiri Waititi: I am!
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Newshub Nation: OK. In your maiden speech, you took your tie off. You
called it "a colonial noose" and now ties aren't compulsory,
so you made immediate change.
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Newshub Nation: I am going to ask you: "What is the next change
that you want to implement?"
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Rawiri Waititi: Well, the next change is, I think, we need to start
looking (12:00) at how Maori can participate
more equally and equitably in that particular space in a Tiriti-centric
Aotearoa -- not in a democracy, because -- like I said -- democracy is
The Majority Rules and indigenous peoples -- especially Maori, at 16%
of the population in this country -- will lose out and we'll sit in second
place again.
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Newshub Nation: Tena koe. Thank you for your time, Rawini Waititi, Co-Leader
of the Maori Party.
